jimboboz ([info]jimboboz) wrote,
@ 2007-03-01 15:34:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:roleplaying, world affairs

Feminism, gaming and "Heroes"
Around my corner of the LJsphere, there's been a bit of talk about gender roles in roleplaying and other kinds of media.


Through the LJs of some women gamers, I came across the feminist sf blog. Its most recent entry is "Gaming and Feminism", and is interesting. All that led to a post by a man about the non-white-male characters in the telly show Heroes (link for the 0.01% of the gamer geek world who haven't seen the show). It's very interesting, and brings up a lot of thoughts about women gamers, and female characters in roleplaying games.

For example, there's a guy who's well-known for politeness and reasoned consideration of things - Dan Davenport, moderator and authour of many reviews at rpg.net - when people were talking about the personality of a woman gamer (admin Nina at rpg.net), he said that

"having met Nina in person at GenCon '05, she is entirely worth having the hots for."
So they were talking about she was honest or decent, he said she was a h4wt chixxorz. Why? Was someone asking if they should date her? And this is a guy who as I said, is well-known for polite decency. Hell, you can't even say "fuck", in his irc chan #rpgnet. So moving on from the polite sexists to... some anonymous bloke here, and the infamous "Mr. Analytical" here went on to ask if she was worth titfucking.

Interestingly, no-one asked if she was a good roleplayer, or GM. You might've thought that'd be relevant on a forum called therpgsite, but apparently not. Just "does she have big tits?"

Anthrobot went on in a new thread to wonder if any women gamers were visiting the site, or gaming. No women have responded at time of this writing, but a few blokes have popped in to say they definitely know heaps of h4wt gamerz chixxorz. The site owner RPGPundit said that "unfortunately at the moment this site is something of a sausagefest", which sounds a lot more tasty than it is. It also implies that at some time in the future this might change; I feel a small measure of scepticism in that regard, to say the least.

Now, I think that most of us can avoid this kind of blatant and abysmally stupid sexism. Nonetheless, we are all affected by it. Highlander's blog post about Heroes noted,
"I don't think there's any deliberate 'agenda' being presented in Heroes. What I do think is that the creators and designers of the show are immersed in our culture to the extent that they simply never questioned certain preconceived social stereotypes."
It may be objected that if stereotypes are fun and lead to an interesting and fun adventure or story, why not use them? Well, because presenting different kinds of characters makes for a more interesting and fun adventure or story. Highlander again,
"Suppose, for example, that instead of Claire's [the super-healing cheerleader in Heroes] father owning his own business and secretly running a covert program tracking and studying and recruiting metahumans, Claire's mother was running all that stuff instead.[...] try to imagine how different the show would be if Claire, for example, was black. This would mean (probably) that her dad would be black as well (although, as she's adopted, this wouldn't be absolutely necessary). Still, try to imagine how different the show would feel if Claire and her father were black rather than white. Or if Nathan and Peter were black. Or if any of them were Asian. How about making the Matt character Hispanic? Think how differently you'd feel about him, if he was a Latino cop who could read your mind."


I don't know about anyone else, but I'd find the show more fun and interesting with these sorts of non-stereotyped roles about.

Of course all humans should challenge stereotypes and cliches as they're the basis of a lot of oppression and misery - but we roleplayers, simply as plain old gamer geeks, have our own good reason to challenge the stereotypes of gender, race - and for that matter, religion and sexuality - because it'll make our adventures and stories more interesting and fun.

What do you lot reckon?

- tool to learn where visitors to this LJ come from - Geo Visitors Map

(Post a new comment)


[info]heraclitus
2007-03-01 05:20 am UTC (link)
That Nina stuff was juvenile and creepy.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]jimboboz
2007-03-01 05:24 am UTC (link)
Absolutely. But it was just a distilled essence of what women get all the time.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]johnmorrow
2007-03-02 05:19 pm UTC (link)
While I agree that women get thrown juvenile and creepy stuff all the time, the truth is that so do men.

Remember that your response to the sexist remarks was, "You guys are virgins, right?" and Mystic Loafer responded, "Are you saying that what we did last night didn't count?" Both attacks on sexuality. Neither of you complained that the comments were out of bounds. But how would you have felt if Mystic Loafer responded that way to a woman and why?

And let's not forget RPGPundits "Spiked Baseball Bat of Great Justice", which he talked about applying to the genitals of some male moderators. What did you think about that comment? How would you feel if it had been a female moderators genitals he was talking about beating with a spiked bat? How would you feel about that?

(Reply to this) (Parent)
Highlander here...
(Anonymous)
2007-03-01 02:50 pm UTC (link)
...thanks for the props, and the kind words.

I'm actually a big rpg geek myself. You can find my gamesite at www.angelfire.com/rpg2/worldofempire , and a few of my articles on rpging here:

http://martianvision.blogspot.com/2006/07/three-dimensions-of-roleplaying.html

http://martianvision.blogspot.com/2006/08/why-saving-world-doesnt-have-to-be.html

http://martianvision.blogspot.com/2006/07/no-evil-shall-escape-my-dice.html

The Martian Vision blog is also a good spot for a lot of my articles on superhero comic books and various geek shows like BUFFY and HIGHLANDER, and you can find links to my other articles on such subjects at miserableannalsoftheearth.blogspot.com

I can be emailed at docnebula@gmail.com .

I appreciate the kind words here, and will be checking out other entries. Thanks again!

(Reply to this)


[info]stormgreywarden
2007-03-01 04:58 pm UTC (link)
I think Mohinder is Asian, but I digress...because he doesn't have any kind of powers (yet).

I'd have been interested tho to see if anyone complained why Sylar wasn't Chinese, or Black, or Hispanic. You can probably bet that someone out there would complain that if Sylar were Black then that'd be a racist stereotype - and yeah it would be.

I think the show's dynamic would have been brilliantly altered if Claire's mom was in charge of the company branch, that would be a twist and a half. It goes back to the old show V where the female protagonist Diana was in charge, she was a strong, dangerous character and I loved the show because of it.

The Nina stuff, yeah, that's the kind of creepy-punch-in-the-face-RL replies I'd do if anyone ever said that about my wife (female gamer), to my face.

Normally in a show like Heroes, you might expect the professor type to be a well educated Englishman, say Giles-style...it was nice to see Mohinder as the skeptical but well educated scientist, so I think they did break a few stereotypes.

Of course Matt as a Hispanic cop, that would have rocked.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]stormgreywarden
2007-03-01 05:03 pm UTC (link)
Of course DL Hawkins, Black, murderer, leader of a gang/crew...yeah, def a stereotype but his actor makes that role work.

In conclusion though, I support the theory that having broken the mould we make more interesting adventures and stories.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]jimboboz
2007-03-01 10:11 pm UTC (link)
Well, it's true that if you stretch it enough, you can call any depiction prejudiced in some way. If Claire's horn-rimmed glasses dad were a black woman, someone might say that she represents white male's fears of female black power. If Matt were Hispanic, then his uselessness could be taken as a slur on Hispanic men. And so on. But those would be a bit of a stretch, and basically looking for offence.

Highlander's analysis as it stands I think is a fair one; he's looked at how society actually depicts these different kinds of people, and drawn parallels with how they're depicted in the show. I agree with him that it's probably not conscious, it's just that the writers are so immersed in the culture, when they create characters that's just what comes up naturally without thought.

What he didn't mention - but hey, an article can't cover everything - was the utter absence of any African, South American, gay or religious characters. Apparently Africans don't develop these genetically-based superpowers. Only people from developed First World countries get k3w1 pw0rz. The other day I played HEROES Unlimited (tm), and you can roll for which area your character comes from - Canada and the USA have separate entries, South America and Europe are entries by themselves, but Africa's not even on the list.

Anyway, I think the religious characters are the most glaring omission. If people are showing up being able to fly and heal and see the future - well, a significant number of them are going to think it's a gift from God, and even if they don't, some other people are going to praise them as englightened, or a prophet.

Again, it's just that the writers are so immersed in the culture - the secular culture - it doesn't occur to them. Which again is a pity, it'd make for a more interesting story. How would Hiro be going if the Aum Shinryo guys (the crazy cultists who gassed the Tokyo subway, and still exist as a cult) found him and started following him around? What if Matt got waylaid by some Scientologists? "He has released his inner Thetan!"

Missed opportunities!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Highlander again...
(Anonymous)
2007-03-02 12:01 am UTC (link)
A note on religion in pop culture fiction -- as a general rule, the creative staff of such artifacts does their best to leave religion and politics out of their scripts. This can be seen most prominently in HEROES with the character of Nathan; we don't even know if he's a Republican or a Democrat, and he's running for office!

This illustrates exactly why writers avoid religion and politics like poison -- they don't want to enrage and/or alienate large sections of their audience, and nothing will piss people off more than hanging a particular tag on a three dimensional, interestingly nuanced character. Can you imagine the firestorm that would have erupted if the writers of HEROES actually told us what political party Nathan belonged to? "The inherent liberal bias of the mainstream media has never been more obvious than with the revelation in the latest episode of HEROES that Nathan Petrelli, a serial philanderer, liar, and cheat, is actually a Republican candidate for high office."

Similarly, you don't want to reveal that any character with any personality issues or flaws is a member of any real world religion, because then people like me write snotty blog articles about how "Nikki may be the only Born Again Christian character we've ever seen in a mainstream science fiction TV show... so of course she's a psychotic lunatic who solves all her problems with violence!"

Etc, etc. People have an infinite (and infantile) capacity for taking offense at ANYthing, and the last thing a TV writer wants to risk is offending ANY potential viewers. Some very extreme people you cannot help but offend -- the Rev. Donald Wildemon is going to try to organize a boycott of your show if you have a good looking female character wandering around in a bra for a few seconds -- and those people you just write off as a cost of doing business -- but as a general rule, if it is at all possible, you avoid pushing the religion or politics buttons.

How many members of the BUFFY or ANGEL cast were religious? Can you think of any? On the other hand, can you definitely say none of them were? Willow was a Wiccan, but did Xander ever go to church? I doubt it, but we don't know for sure. Similarly, we have no idea how Oz or Faith or Cordelia may have voted in any elections... and while I'm bemused at the question of just how vampires vote, Democrat or Republican, still, it's certainly not anything Joss Whedon would ever have let any of his writers bring up.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: Highlander again...
[info]jimboboz
2007-03-02 08:13 am UTC (link)
Oh, that's all certainly true when you're living in a barbaric reactionary country like the USA. I completely understand why it's so.

But just as the absence of religious themes is natural, understandable, and probably inevitable in a mainstream tv show, so too is the traditional roles of women, white males and so on. So if you get to complain that their roles are traditional, then I get to complain that no-one's religious, or is followed around by religious cultists. If you get to say, "oh well, that's just the way it is, what can you do," about religion, then everyone else gets to say it about gender and race.

Still doesn't explain why all the heroes come from First World countries, though ;)

You asked for originality to make the story more interesting, Highlander - I'm asking for more originality, still! :D

P.S. Get a LJ account so I don't have to unscreen your comments! After all, as a gamer you may want to comment on about fifty other entries on this blog...

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: Highlander again...
[info]stormgreywarden
2007-03-02 09:40 am UTC (link)
It raises some incredible points that are so true. Claire is also a result of American school social demographics, I think. So she couldn't be anything but a pretty blonde white kid, the school kids themselves wouldn't allow it, just not part of their social and cultural makeup.

I'd allow it, but if you've ever seen pictures of me...I wasn't exactly Mr. Popular at school in the United Kingdom - I didn't conform to the norm, not because I wanted to shock people with my goth-ness.

I did have a soft spot for the Haitian(sp) and the Indian kid that is a Hero, who can mess with your dreams. I wasn't expecting him, the football playing was something I'd have associated with a Brazillian kid.

I do agree that religion and politics (as a writer) are a dangerous subject to cover, people would freak the hell out if they ever read one of my science-fiction/horror/paranormal worlds where I took religion by the throat and beat it up against the wall.

And by beat, I mean, throttle until half-dead and leave the corpse leaning up against the wall in a bloody and battered mess. If I ever published (mainstream) this as a book it would drop the biggest religious nuke with thousands of people wanting my blood.

When you take a cyberpunk style world, fill it with an essence of paranormal madness and throw in the privatisation of Heaven and Hell, with the associated fallout you get a twisted cross between Sin City and the Bible.

Or at least that's how one of the game developers I work with described it, whilst laughing uproariously and daring me to get it published.

(Reply to this) (Parent)
Re: Highlander again...
(Anonymous)
2007-03-02 03:26 pm UTC (link)
Jim,

I'm sorry, I'm getting married in April, have to go to one of my future stepkids school today, am uploading stuff to Digg, have a novel I'm working on for submission in early March... I'd get a livejournal account if I had the time, but right now I'm swamped.

I understand you are asking for MORE originality; my point is, while a mainstream show could fairly easily make a main character a member of another race or gender to shake things up a little, they would be taking a much MUCH larger risk by dragging religion into it. I like your idea about having Scientologists gape in awe at how the various heroes have 'released their Thetans', but the Church of Scientology throws a lot of weight around and has no sense of humor about people making fun of them. Try to find the SOUTH PARK episode that mocked them sometime.

As to the countries where the heroes (or, as I prefer to call them, since some of them are right bastards, "specials") are from, well, I have a theory (you need to hear that as if one of the Scooby Gang is singing it in the BUFFY musical episode) --

I think the 'specials' are all products of a covert U.S. genetic engineering program, probably something that grew out of MKULTRA, whereby the military/intelligence cartel tried to create mind controlled super slaves to work on deep black projects for the U.S. government (actually, the secret corporate cartel that controls the U.S. government, but never mind that now). That would explain to me why we only see 'specials' in, as you put it, First World nations. The project has somehow gone wrong, and several 'specials' have effectively grown up 'in the wild', leading to a massive effort by the original project to bring them back under control.

Not all the 'specials' we see are actually running loose. I believe the two couples who have produced children (Nikki and her husband whose name I can't remember, as well as Nathan and Fire Chick, were clearly controlled into having children together, probably to see if the induced mutation is a true one and can be passed along. (Otherwise, they should never have gotten together; the odds of two couples interacting and having kids from a population that numbers less than a hundred are staggeringly low.) I also think remote mind control is the ONLY plausible reason why Peter Petrelli would see some scruffy guy stealing shit on the street and immediately think "Hey, there's my Mentor! He can teach me how to use my powers!"

Beyond that, if you know anything about MKULTRA, you know that it involves forcibly fragmenting the mind of the victim/subject into alternate personalities which can be programmed and controlled... and that mirrors are a huge part of this programming/control process. Which is why I think Nikki may be the most important character in the show, she just doesn't know it.

Anyway, if it's a U.S. government project gone wrong, then whatever agent it is that causes the mutations really hasn't had much chance to spread so far. Which is no doubt why Horned Rimmed Glasses guy and whoever he represents are trying to hard to get all the 'specials' back into the corral again... before they have to deal with an entire generation of super powered people.

That's my theory, and if I ever had a couple of hours I wasn't spending on eighteen other projects, I'd do a blog post about it, too.

Now, off to post more shit on Digg before I go to lunch with a 7 year old...

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: Highlander again...
[info]jimboboz
2007-03-03 12:41 am UTC (link)
Congratulations on your coming marriage!

I only meant that you should start one so that people's LJs you commented on, they don't have to screen your comments; I didn't mean you should post even a single entry to the thing.

I understand that they'd be taking a risk by such plot elements. I understand that the network and studio system makes taking risks unlikely - no-one wants to take risks with tens or hundreds of millions of dollars, they want a sure thing. However, I think we're confusing taking a risk with courting controversy. That a few people wave placards is showing controversy, but it doesn't mean the show will be unsuccessful. But I also understand that network and studio executives are essentially gutless.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]johnmorrow
2007-03-02 06:07 pm UTC (link)
You wrote, "What he didn't mention - but hey, an article can't cover everything - was the utter absence of any African, South American, gay or religious characters. Apparently Africans don't develop these genetically-based superpowers. Only people from developed First World countries get k3w1 pw0rz."

The guy who takes memories is from Haiti. The kid who helped Mohinder in India was from India. The show makes it pretty clear that people with powers aren't just in First World countries. I believe the map Mohinder's father put together isn't just a US map. As for religion, Claire's mother sounded plenty religious (and plenty strong) in the latest episode.

Of course if they start adding characters from Africa, South America, the Pacific Islands, Australia, maybe an Ainu and a Lapp so that nobody feels left out, and so on, how big is this ensemble cast going to be and how many slots are going to be left for people from the United States because the show is, uh, made in the United States for people living in the United States? Your complaint is like complaining that there weren't enough Australians on the plain in Lost, since the plane was coming from Australia. Or that there aren't enough episodes dealing with US or African or South American history in Doctor Who. Or that Godzilla movies don't have enough people from England or MIddle East in them. Shows reflect the country they are made in. What a surprise! Or do shows made in Australia for Australians frequently feature South Americans and Africans?

As for your comments about Aum Shinryo and Scientology, there is already another show dealing with that, including a very obvious Scientology knock-off. It's called "The 4400". Oh, and they've also had episodes about a person from Africa and others using their powers in Third World nations. Maybe you'd like that show better? It's really pretty similar in it's premise and it may be a better fit for your wish list.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]jimboboz
2007-03-03 12:36 am UTC (link)
Obviously a show has to draw the line somewhere at the number of cast members and scope. And as Highlander said, that the people are First World only may in fact be part of the plot. Suppose that in some stages of the show they'd presented people discovering superpowers all over the world, but had then focused only on those in the USA - then Highlander's MK-Ultra conspiracy theory would be impossible. They needn't have superpowered people from every country in the world as part of their plot - but they can show whether or not they even exist. It's significant to the story, especially to show whether or not Mohinder's dad's theory about it being genetic is true or not.

I don't expect tv shows or movies to cover the whole world. But sometimes, the state of the rest of the world is relevant to the plot. In a movie about a Third World War being fought in Germany, it might be relevant to mention at least in passing if there's a war being fought in Asia, too. It puts things in perspective. As Highlander's MK-Ultra conspiracy theory highlights, whether the superpowers are coming only to First World people, or to everyone across the world, is quite relevant to the overall story arc.

It's not that religion is present or absent in the show, but that its presence is only cosmetic, like people's shoes. It's not a plot element. Logically, if people develop superhuman powers, then their own religion and that of any normal human witnesses, will become part of the events which follow.

That I am complaining about a US show does not mean I don't make similar complaints about Aussie shows, johnmorrow ;) For example, our soaps are strangely absent non-WASPs. Aboriginals are non-existent in Aussie tv. But at the moment we're not talking about Aussie tv shows, or American tv shows, we're talking about Heroes.

Unfortunately The 4400 didn't seem to rate well here and it got shuffled around from timeslot to timeslot without notice, and then disappeared. Our networks are pretty unforgiving with scifi shows. So I only caught two episodes, and those by accident.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]johnmorrow
2007-03-03 02:57 am UTC (link)
But my point is that the show does suggest that people all over the world, including Africa and South America, in Mohinder's father's map. You can find a screenshot of it here:

[url=http://heroeswiki.com/images/1/1d/Interactive_map_extracted.jpg]http://heroeswiki.com/images/1/1d/Interactive_map_extracted.jpg[/url]

Now, granted there are more white faces on that map than the world population would suggest, but remember that he's tracking people via genetic tests, something richer First World residents are more likely to get involved in in large numbers (e.g., the test offered by National Geographic).

The show also does mention people with powers elsewhere, including the fact that they discovered the Haitian (suggesting that they are looking in other countries and bringing them in) and the boy that helped Mohinder with his dreams in India. They are there. What you are suggesting is that they step out of the storytelling conventions of the show (which is to follow the stories of particular characters) and do a sort of montage of people around the world with powers. I think that would look quite forced. I think we'll see more as the story warrants it.

I think that both Sylar and the inheritance along with various characters talking about "evolution" make it pretty clear that it's intended to really be genetic.

I do think that Claire's mom's religion plays a fairly important role in the latest episode (I won't say more to avoid spoilers for those who haven't seen it) and I don't think it's just like a pair of shoes in those scenes. I think they make it pretty clear that it's a part of who she is and, to me, it rang pretty true.

With respect to your point about Australian shows being full of WASPs, the corresponding complain for Heroes would be that it doesn't include enough non-WASPs which, of course, isn't true. What you are really complaining about is that it doesn't pay enough attention to non-Americans, which would be akin to complaining that an Australian show doesn't tell us what's going on in Africa or South America, but even that's not true. Heck, several of the main characters aren't even Americans, including two Japanese guys, an Indian, a Brit, and a Haitian. Part of Mohinder's story arc took him back to India and Hiro, of course, comes from Japan. You'll be hard pressed to find many American shows that are even close to interested in non-American characters, yet what I'm hearing is, "Not good enough." I think you doth protest too much.

The 4400 is an interesting show but it's been a bit uneven and has a bit of a "making it up as we go" feeling to it. That said, given your ideas about what you like to see in Heroes, particularly with respect to religion, I think you'd find some of it interesting because that's a focus of that show. Not every show can do everything and The 4400 is a very different show than Heroes. And if they made some of the changes you suggest, Heroes would be a different show, too. The show focuses on particular characters and until we get to episodes that show us more of the global groups operating in the shadows, the context for a global view of what's going on just isn't present yet. Give it time. You may yet see the sort of thing you are looking for as it makes sense, from the perspective of the main characters, to see things like that.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
I wish everyone would settle on one way to tag posts...
[info]johnmorrow
2007-03-03 02:59 am UTC (link)
Here is the map URL without message board mark-up tags that don't work in LiveJournal:

http://heroeswiki.com/images/1/1d/Interactive_map_extracted.jpg

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: I wish everyone would settle on one way to tag posts...
[info]jimboboz
2007-03-03 09:14 am UTC (link)
You can use html tags for links here. Like [a href="http://www.example.com"]Example text[/a], only with <> instead of [].

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]jimboboz
2007-03-03 09:12 am UTC (link)
A map's not really enough. I'd like a few seconds here and there of some superheroes in other countries. Like in Independence Day, "wow, here's Paris being destroyed!" They don't have to set the whole show in some obscure country, just show little bits of them, you know?

I didn't complain that Heroes lacked non-WASPs. Of course that would be nonsense. Go back and read Highander's article. The point is not that the show has only WASP male characters, but that those non-WASP and female characters don't step much out of the traditional roles such people take. It's like how in old movies Amerindians were always evil butchers or wise old guys or hot young women with a lust for white protagonists, or negroes were fat friendly housemaids and doormen.

The point isn't that minorities and women are under-represented, but that they're represented so unimaginatively. No-one wanted to do anything genuinely new. It's just the same old nonsense and stereotypes we've seen a zillion times before. Which is a pity, because the premise - ordinary people develop superhuman abilities - is one which, when you add cultures and personalities to it, would be more interesting than superhuman abilities, and cultures and personalities treated separately, or ignoring one.

What's wrong with saying, "not good enough"? If they present characters from different backgrounds, but never step beyond stereotypes, that's really not any better than not showing the people of different backgrounds at all.

Let's take for example To Sir, With Love. Would the film be half as memorable if it'd had Paul Newman instead of Sidney Poitier? An intelligent, confident, forthright teacher - that's a pretty common character. But he was black - that made it more interesting. And the film wasn't about him being black - he just happened to be black. He wasn't struggling to overcome prejudice, really, that's not what the film was about.

About Claire's mum I don't know yet. But I think that if anyone really did get k3w1 pw0rz, a good number of those people would see themselves as a prophet or messiah, and an even larger number of normal people would see them as that, too. Just the unproven claim of magical abilities gets people cults, imagine what real abilities would get them!

What's wrong with saying, "not good enough"? What's wrong with wanting something better than the same nonsense we've been getting for years? If I want nothing but sexist stereotypes, I can watch WWF, which has been going for, what? Twenty years? Thirty?

Bleargh. Give me something new and original!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(Anonymous)
2007-03-04 09:54 pm UTC (link)
With respect to showing a few seconds here and there, that's not how Heroes is done. It's a narrow focus show.

As for the characters taking on traditional roles, that's because Heroes is about common people getting powers, not really unusual people getting powers. That they are traditional, if not cliches, is part of the point. If they were all things like one-armed black lesbian lumberjacks and blind asian Muslim social workers, they wouldn't resonate with most of the audience, which is probably closer to and more familiar with the cliches. You can't have a show about average people who become heroes when none of the people seem average or normal.

None of the characters in heroes are represented particularly imaginatively. Not even the white males. That's not the role of the show. And if someone doesn't like that, then maybe that show isn't for them and there are alternatives.

Like I've said, in many ways, The 4400 has dealt more strongly with those themes, including having a black character who was a pilot during the Korean War with episodes that specifically dealt with racism and so forth and an episode dealing with a Rwandan war criminal given powers. Maybe you need to track that down. But I reject the idea that every show has to deal with these issues the same way.

What's wrong with saying, "not good enough" is that what many of the people who complain define as "good enough" falls within a very small ideological box. And unless the work in question fits into that box, it's never going to be "good enough".

The recent controversy over the RPG Spirit of the Century illustrates that, with the "not good enough" charge, there is one narrow set of "right answers" that will make some people happy, which involves counting scenes, quotas, paint-by-numbers diversity, and, I suspect, all of the villains being white Christian conservative businessmen that is every bit as silly and artificial as the old fashioned cliches. Is yet another action show or movie with cartoon evil white supremacist bad guys really all that new or original? I don't think so, but that's where an intense concern over how various groups are depicted has taken us so far.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]jimboboz
2007-03-04 10:26 pm UTC (link)
What's wrong with saying, "not good enough" is that what many of the people who complain define as "good enough" falls within a very small ideological box. And unless the work in question fits into that box, it's never going to be "good enough".

That's certainly true. But on the other hand, what me and Highlander are saying is something different.

If you give characters roles which are not stereotypical, then your story has the chance to be more interesting and memorable than one which has stereotypical characters. It's like how in roleplaying, your characters have the chance to be more interesting if they have some depth. A character who has, "likes swords, dislikes blunt swords, hobby of sharpening swords, ambition to get a bigger sword," is a stereotypical "fighter", and has not much potential to be interesting and memorable. Having a character who has, "like swords, dislikes priests of Set, hobby of saying "Crom!", ambition to avenge his murdered parents," it's doesn't really require a Robert Deniro level of acting, but it's a lot more interesting than the first guy.

That's why I brought up the point which Highlander missed - as it turns out, he missed it deliberately - the point about religion. It's a glaring omission in the plot, because even if every heroic character were a secular atheist, someone's bound to attach themselves to them, either understanding their abilities in terms of an existing religion, or making up a new one to fit it all in. That'd be a more interesting story.

I think the Spirit of the Century kerfuffle missed an important point, which is that roleplaying is unlike tv or books, it's a participatory activity. If a movie or book is sexist or racist or something, well you can do no more than complain about it. But if a roleplaying game is prejudiced, then you can do it differently in play. You want women in your SotC game? Put them there! Sure, the sexism is still there in the game book - but really, who cares? A roleplaying game has no meaning until played. It's how you play it which matters.

So with a roleplaying game, the prejudice has a solution - how we play it. With a book or movie, all we can do is bitch about it. Which is why we're bitching here :D

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]johnmorrow
2007-03-07 12:21 am UTC (link)
You wrote, "If you give characters roles which are not stereotypical, then your story has the chance to be more interesting and memorable than one which has stereotypical characters. It's like how in roleplaying, your characters have the chance to be more interesting if they have some depth."

I think you are confusing two things here -- stereotypes and depth. A stereotyped character can have a great deal of depth and still be a stereotyped character. Shakespeare is full of stereotypes, as are plenty of other works of literature. If you are asking for depth, you should ask for depth, and I think the characters in Hero have plenty of depth given the pace of the story and the size of the ensemble cast. As it is, they can't touch on every character during every episode.


(Reply to this) (Parent)

Create an Account
Forgot your login or password?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…